Safe, Efficient, Profitable: A Worker Safety Podcast
Joe and Jen Allen of Allen Safety LLC take their combined 40+ years of worker safety, OSHA, EPA, production, sanitation, and engineering experience in Manufacturing Plants including Harvest Plants/Packers, Case Readies and Further Processing Plants, Food Production Plants, Feed Mills, Grain Elevators, Bakeries, Farms, Feed Lots, and Petro-Chemical and bring you their top methods for identifying risk, preventing injuries, conquering the workload, auditing, managing emergencies and catastrophic events, and working through OSHA citations. They're breaking down real safety opportunities, safety citations, and emergency situations from real locations, and discussing realistic solutions that can actually be implement based on their personal experiences spending 40+ weeks in the field every year since 2001. Joe and Jen are using all of that experience to provide a fresh outlook on worker safety by providing honest, (no sponsors here!) and straight forward, easy to understand safety coaching with actionable guidance to move your safety program forward in a way that provides tangible results.
Safe, Efficient, Profitable: A Worker Safety Podcast
#55: Ladder Safety- Top Ladder Safety Problems & Solutions
Introduction:
The hosts, Joe Allen and Jen Allen, discuss the importance of ladder safety and the excitement surrounding the topic.
The episode focuses on ladder safety issues, not just inspections or conventional solutions, but on identifying user problems and how to address them effectively.
Identifying Problems:
They discuss various problems encountered with ladder safety, including using the wrong style of ladder, using ladders that are too short, using outdated or inappropriate materials (e.g., wooden ladders in environments requiring metal ladders), and the confusion surrounding the selection of staircases.
Lack of spotters during ladder use, lack of understanding of the three points of contact rule, and challenges related to ladder extensions are also highlighted as significant issues.
Inspections:
While organizations often conduct formal inspections, the hosts stress the importance of frequent, informal inspections during actual usage, especially considering that damage often occurs during use rather than storage.
They emphasize the need for continuous inspection during projects, even if it means interrupting workflow momentarily to ensure safety.
Knowing When to Stop:
This segment covers situations where ladder use should be halted to prevent injuries, such as when the ladder exceeds the height of guardrails or when climbing off the ladder without proper tie-off points.
External factors like weather conditions, such as lightning or icy conditions, also warrant halting ladder use.
Storage:
The hosts discuss the importance of proper ladder storage, considering factors such as the height of the ladder compared to the user and the placement of ladders during the day.
Challenges with storing multiple ladders together, ensuring secure storage to prevent accidents, and storing ladders in accessible locations for ease of use are highlighted.
Solutions:
Solutions suggested include conducting behavior-based observations to identify specific issues, implementing engineering controls where possible (e.g., permanent tie-off points), and involving end-users in brainstorming sessions for innovative solutions.
They emphasize the importance of documenting solutions, integrating them into training programs, and continuously reassessing and improving ladder safety practices.
Closing Remarks:
The hosts encourage listeners to reach out with feedback or topic suggestions and provide various platforms for engagement, including LinkedIn, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and podcasts.
They invite listeners to visit their websites for additional resources and support and thank them for supporting the podcast.
Keywords:
Ladder safety
Workplace safety
Common ladder problems
Ladder inspection
Engineering controls
Three points of contact
Weather protocol for ladder use
Ladder storage solutions
Risk assessment
Safety program implementation
All right, today, ladder safety. Why are you yelling about it? Because I'm excited. That's why Ladder safety.
Speaker 2:Okay, you sound nice.
Speaker 1:Today's episode ladder safety, Not inspections, not all the stuff you see everywhere else. We're talking about problems and solutions.
Speaker 2:Yep end-user problems and how to fix them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the first we have is problems Don't call. We got all kinds of problems with ladders and ladder safety.
Speaker 2:What's interesting about that is it should be one of the simplest things. It's just a ladder.
Speaker 1:You pick it up, you put it up, climb it, you're good to go, but we still have people falling off. Yes, why? Because they get the wrong style oh, okay that's one of them. So we're going to do some categories here, but what first was problem? So categories, wrong style yep another one, yeah, another one is too short, yep. So like they go to grab one to go to eight foot, they get a six foot yeah, we end up on the top two steps or top one step, yeah absolutely aluminum.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we still see wooden ones that are made, or we see well, wooden's a problem if you have any kind of food safety and then if you have aluminum, that kind of is weird for an mcc room.
Speaker 2:If you don't have to work. Yeah, we want to avoid that all right.
Speaker 1:Another one is staircase style the the rolling staircases. Yeah, we see. We're getting them to be safer, but yeah, but people it's like, do they need them, do they not? When do they use them, or will they fit? And then they so that whole concept of which. How do you select it?
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like part of the issue is also we don't. We can't use them everywhere. So it sounds like a great idea in theory, but they're really kind of cumbersome Most places we go.
Speaker 1:you can't.
Speaker 2:They're kind of cumbersome.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know, and they're difficult to steer and move around to get to where you need to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another one is no spotter when we're using a ladder. Yeah, we had this a few days ago. We were at a location. They got to put up a ladder. No one's there when they climbing up or getting off of it. I've seen people kick the ladder and the ladder go to the ground. You see all kinds of weird stuff on videos about it.
Speaker 2:Extension ladders, in particular Yep.
Speaker 1:I'm with you. And another one is not define what three points of contact is. And why did I put that one last in this little group?
Speaker 2:Because that's the one everybody complains about, that's the one that serves the pot, that's the one everybody gets excited about.
Speaker 1:So in our world, our solution is we don't require one hand to be on the ladder, and the reason we don't is because the daily work we see.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that there's a difference between ascending and descending and the requirements around that, and I think there's a difference between in use and working.
Speaker 1:So that's that one. So that's one category Problems. Another one inspections. Everyone does the formals, Everyone stores a beautiful Theoretically we're doing some kind of documented review of our ladders at some point. But what I worry about is during the day we're doing a 12-hour project, five-hour project. You're pulling out, you use the ladder, you put it somewhere, you put it somewhere. You really inspect it when you take it place to place.
Speaker 2:And it somewhere. Do you really inspect it when you take it place to place? And that's where the damage occurs? It doesn't get damaged being stored, yeah. So there's this weird thing if you pull the ladder down or away from wherever the storage location is to use it, we're we're not always the best doing a pre-use inspection. Should we be theoretically absolutely. Does it always happen? Not always I.
Speaker 1:I use it at one o'clock. You got to use it too. We're. We're doing a project, so I'm not going to take it all the way back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just going to put it over the side. Somewhere I had to scoot it over and I didn't realize I ripped a foot off when I did that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That's a good one Feet missing and not even know what feet missing looks like, because everybody buys.
Speaker 2:A lot of the locations we work in it's slick floors and it's wet, which is why we have different kinds of boots that we require and we do boot and tread inspections and things like that. So when you're climbing at elevation, that becomes more important, so it doesn't slip out from under you. Now we don't have a spotter, maybe we're missing feet on the ladder. Things start to snowball, and that's how we run into problems.
Speaker 1:No one ever checks the staircase or the brakes, so you get the rolling staircase and it's still a ladder. It's still inspection and it still has pieces that are supposed to keep it stable. It's supposed to have brakes.
Speaker 2:People don't check that and you'll see people just start going to the staircase. Yeah, a lot of times they don't work. They go to try and use the brake and they can't get it to actually engage because it's rusted All right Category number three, when to stop because it could cause an injury. Yeah, Where's the end point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're going to climb up on some rails and grab a four-foot ladder and it puts us over the rails.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so we're already on a platform, but we need a ladder to get higher than where we are. That's right.
Speaker 1:So there's guardrails. Put another rail up or move the ladder in the middle, so I mean there's ways to look at it.
Speaker 2:Look at a tie-off situation at that point, yep.
Speaker 1:Another one is climbing off the ladder. We had an episode.
Speaker 2:Stepping off the ladder?
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, we had an episode about different things about harnesses and one of the things often people go to climb off of the ladder.
Speaker 2:We don't always have a tie off point, or we don't always have the ladder itself tied off. So you go to step off, you kick it out from under you, you don't have a spotter Again things start to snowball on you.
Speaker 1:Electric cords and hoses we have a lot of hoses. All our plants have sanitation Things wrapped around your feet when you're working the ladder your feet, in between your feet, yep, and if somebody hits that cord or somebody grabs that, somebody pulls that hose real quick to get it out of the walkway or move it, or a few days ago we had a chain and we took the chains down and we started moving them and somebody had a portable ladder and the chain was pulling on the portable ladder.
Speaker 1:And if they don't watch it, yeah, and it gets stuck and they pull it hard. They knock the whole ladder over with the person on it yep so that's another one, and the the tie-off makes you reach too far.
Speaker 2:Yep, we're outside of the plane now. Now I'm having to lean outside the plane to click into a tie-off point. Well, that's not really the intent of what we're doing. We're tying off to be safer, correct, but we're putting ourselves in a bad situation trying to get to that safer point. So we have to start evaluating is the ladder in the right spot? Is the tie-off in the right spot? When we start adding some of these processes, we've just got to really double check that we're not adding things to put ourselves in a worse situation absolutely.
Speaker 1:Another one in this category, when to stop is weather protocols. Yeah, I'd send him on our winds earlier this week in a project and we can't be using ladders during that time winds, lightning.
Speaker 2:I would even say things like if we've got permanent ladders and we've got any kind of frost or ice buildup, absolutely especially. You know, obviously, that they would be outside in that moment. So when I'm thinking of that, I'm thinking of we don't have any kind of grip on the, the round rung of the ladder sure or we haven't changed them out to the boot. They got everything on them yeah, we haven't changed them out to the flat styles, so that's that category.
Speaker 1:Last category, storage. We're not talking about where you just store it and it looks pretty. We're talking about what if I'm 5'8 and it's a 15-foot ladder and I store it hanging all the way up on the wall and I got to pull it down.
Speaker 2:That's almost training in a way to me. Yeah, because I got to pull that ladder down.
Speaker 1:All that force is above my head. Yeah, because I got to pull that ladder down. All that force is above my head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we usually don't talk about in training. Hey, if you've got a ladder and it's this much taller than you are maybe you need to get a certain person for a 10-foot ladder, 8-foot ladder, whatever. Yeah, we never really have that discussion about how we're going to manage the height differences.
Speaker 1:Another thing about storage is when they're leaned during the day.
Speaker 2:It seems like everywhere you go during the day, there's storage, and then there's storage while we're working.
Speaker 1:Yep, we don't call it that. We say no, it's in use. Well, no one's on or using it or moving around. Is it really in use? We don't. They lean it on something that gets knocked over.
Speaker 2:We went to break. That's correct, but we don't really on the walkways storage.
Speaker 1:So we see a lot of them were elevated.
Speaker 2:You'll see like ladder sideways on a catwalk yeah, and you gotta remember those mid rails are up there a little bit, yeah, so if you don't watch it, you can pick up that ladder, knock that ladder and it goes over the edge yeah, yep the other one is not secured, so when they pull one, they all come down yes, if you've got a whole bunch of different ones and they're held all by one chain maybe you've got a variety of different sizes and styles all in the same storage you pull off the.
Speaker 1:That was great ladder. Two six foot ladders in front of it. They're all coming down or they're all vertical.
Speaker 2:They're not planted at all absolutely too many stored together yep so you got five and six and eight with one big chain yeah, I'm trying to dig in there and get the one that I need to do the job correctly, and they all come with it. Or I'm trying to move stuff around and they fall and hit somebody else or equipment or something, yep.
Speaker 1:The wrong area for the job. That is a huge one to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're storing the ladders in the location where there is wall space, not in the areas where we actually use them, but it's 150 yeah I wouldn't go to the barn.
Speaker 1:I'll be like can this chair in these boxes make it? I really got to go all the way up the barn yeah, three rooms away.
Speaker 2:You got to wonder are we climbing on equipment and standing on that to do it? Because it's a little easier. We go in three rooms to carry it back and then, slamming everything on everything, walk back yeah, and then the last thing is we're storage during the day for 12 hours of use.
Speaker 1:Now we have the leaning, but we also had this random world where during because I just did a project a few days ago as we're doing projects these ladders show up everywhere during the day as they move they have their own life, yeah and I spent a lot of time saying can we barricade off the ladder area and just at least put them in that area so they're not just everywhere, because we still got pits and truck traffic and loaders and people and platforms.
Speaker 1:There's still all this other stuff moving. You know you got a cable to a welder they're bringing around. All this stuff is still in motion.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, we've got cables and cords and extension cords.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Running a grinder, the one we had a few days ago. They're doing some welding and they're grinding. Well, they've got every kind of cord going to that. Yeah, they got a lot going on and they're going up a ladder, but they keep a spare ladder in case they need something else. But that ladder has its own life now of having its own injuries if you don't watch it.
Speaker 2:Yep. So just as a really quick reminder, this is our opinion, take it how you want Still do a thorough risk assessment, because every situation is different. We understand that each industry has its own unique thing. Absolutely still do a risk in us. What still do a risk assessment at your facility absolutely so.
Speaker 1:How do we? What solutions for these? How do we manage this?
Speaker 2:so the way I would manage these is first the problems, look at your individual operations, evaluate what out of that list you can realistically see. Maybe go out and do some observations Behavior-based observations would be my thing. I'd start with that and then take those and figure out as a management team how do we want to handle this. We still have to do the process. We still have to, you know, put product at the door.
Speaker 1:You can be part of your pre-planning for a project.
Speaker 2:But you know, how are we going to manage these? So yeah, pre-planning, doing any kind of elevated work, assessments are always helpful, and then in areas where you can look at engineering control. So can we put a tie off? Can we put a?
Speaker 1:I don't want to use a ladder from key front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Can we put something permanent in place? If this is a daily function, how can we manage that app? And then I would look at starting to write some of these things in terms of defining what three points of contact is, what you and your management team or your company maybe they've dictated that to you already what that's going to be for your corporation do a ladder storage evaluation.
Speaker 1:We've done that before we walk around the plant and say where where are we using these?
Speaker 2:yeah, where can we put these and then yep, let's find a location within that room, immediate area. To make it simple, how can we make this process simple? Maybe Maybe we have hooks instead of a chain, I mean you know. But the other thing is is where are we putting the hook so that we're not lifting it up and then going backwards with the ladder, so doing an evaluation of, okay, what of this list do we have at our location, writing those kinds of fixes and solutions, or how you're going to manage that, either into your training, into a ladder program or, if you don't have a separate ladder program, looking at writing that into an elevated work. You know things like how are we going to manage the previous inspections? Are we documenting those, are we not? How are we going to manage all of that out? I would look at using a safety program and the training piece as kind of the thing where you document all of those solutions.
Speaker 1:A few years ago, we did nothing but try to figure out how not to use them yeah, so that's what you do every time you decide in a meeting, we need one. Your next thought ought to be how do we not use it?
Speaker 2:why is there another?
Speaker 1:solution you get out of all this yep.
Speaker 2:Was there another solution where I can give them a platform instead of having them carry up a hose with one hand and now we're struggling, yeah even a host connection.
Speaker 1:We've. We've done that, for we'll put the host connection up top Somewhere else so you just connect up there and not have to drag it up with you. Yep.
Speaker 2:So how can you use engineering controls to? If you have to use a ladder, a rolling staircase, some kind of elevated situation, how can we at least make the job easier? Absolutely. Look at brainstorming with your engineering team. Let's get them involved, let's get the end user involved. I think that's always helpful. They've got some really great ideas, especially our mechanics. They can come up with some really cool stuff. So I would involve them. And, you know, just just start slowly working through them, one at a time, one at a time.
Speaker 1:Everyone you can eliminate is a win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it for us. You can reach out to us, joe Allen, jen Allen, on LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn. We've got TikTok, we've got Facebook, we've got a YouTube channel. We're YouTube, but if YouTube doesn't work for you, you can download us anywhere. Podcasts are available, so you can reach out to us there. We're also on Instagram, all of the things, so reach out comment. We'd love to hear from you guys If there's a certain subject that you want to hear just go ahead.
Speaker 2:Private message us and we'll try and work it in. So, all right, have a great week, everybody, take care. Thank you for listening to safe, efficient, profitable a worker safety podcast. If you're looking for more in-depth discussions or step-by-step solutions on all of the different safety and regulatory topics, please visit us at wwwallensafetycoachingcom for web-based virtual coaching and training, or at wwwallen-safetycom to book our team for onsite services, training sessions, to order merchandise, to learn more about our team and what services we provide in the field, or just simply to request a topic for us to cover on our next podcast. If you found today's podcast helpful and would like to support our podcast further, please help us by subscribing, liking and sharing this podcast with anyone that could benefit from the information we cover here, as that helps us to continue to put out this free content. Thank you.
