Safe, Efficient, Profitable: A Worker Safety Podcast
Joe and Jen Allen of Allen Safety LLC take their combined 40+ years of worker safety, OSHA, EPA, production, sanitation, and engineering experience in Manufacturing Plants including Harvest Plants/Packers, Case Readies and Further Processing Plants, Food Production Plants, Feed Mills, Grain Elevators, Bakeries, Farms, Feed Lots, and Petro-Chemical and bring you their top methods for identifying risk, preventing injuries, conquering the workload, auditing, managing emergencies and catastrophic events, and working through OSHA citations. They're breaking down real safety opportunities, safety citations, and emergency situations from real locations, and discussing realistic solutions that can actually be implement based on their personal experiences spending 40+ weeks in the field every year since 2001. Joe and Jen are using all of that experience to provide a fresh outlook on worker safety by providing honest, (no sponsors here!) and straight forward, easy to understand safety coaching with actionable guidance to move your safety program forward in a way that provides tangible results.
Safe, Efficient, Profitable: A Worker Safety Podcast
#56 Hot Work & Fire Watch Toolbox Talk- Problems & Solutions
In this episode on Hot work and fire watch gaps, opportunities, and failures, the focus is on critical issues related to hot work procedures, permitting Joe and Jen begin by highlighting common misunderstandings and gaps in hot work permitting and hot work safety practices within the industry.
Key Points Covered:
Importance of Fire Watch Training: The episode starts with a discussion on the inadequate coverage of fire watch responsibilities in industry training. The host emphasizes the need for comprehensive fire watch training that goes beyond basic fire extinguisher use to include strategic placement and movement during welding operations.
Hot Work Permit Discrepancies: A significant portion of the episode addresses the shortcomings of generic hot work permits. These permits often fail to account for specific job site conditions, such as multiple welding areas or elevated surfaces where sparks pose significant risks.
Customization of Hot Work Permits: The discussion shifts to the necessity of customizing hot work permits to fit the unique needs of each job site and operation. Issues arise when permits fail to specify critical details like the duration of fire watches or the clear area requirements, potentially leading to safety breaches and liability concerns.
Role of Designated Welding Areas: The concept of designated welding areas is explored in detail. The host stresses that these areas must adhere strictly to safety protocols to prevent accidents, contrasting them with improperly designated areas that still pose fire hazards despite being labeled as safe for welding.
Risk Assessments and Solutions: Throughout the episode, the importance of conducting thorough risk assessments and implementing tailored solutions is underscored. This proactive approach helps mitigate fire risks effectively by anticipating potential hazards and preparing adequate safety measures.
Educational Resources and Support: The episode concludes by offering viewers resources for further education and support in hot work safety. The host encourages reaching out for additional guidance on developing robust safety programs, managing training needs, and ensuring compliance with industry standards.
Conclusion:
The episode serves as a comprehensive guide to addressing critical gaps in fire safety during hot work operations. By highlighting common pitfalls in fire watch training and hot work permits, the episode aims to equip viewers with the knowledge needed to enhance workplace safety and reduce fire risks effectively.
Keywords:
Hot work safety, fire watch training, hot work permits, designated welding areas, risk assessment, workplace safety, fire safety protocols, industry standards, safety training, fire hazard mitigation, welding safety, fire watch safety, hot work toolbox talks, fire watch toolbox talks, hot work permit training, hot work safety training, fire watch safety training, construction safety, welding safety, industrial hot work, fire, fire mitigation, fire prevention, fire brigade, fire extinguisher training, incipient stage fire, fire safety training
Hot work. That's how we're starting this episode.
Speaker 2:This is the problems, because that's what we all care about.
Speaker 1:Problem episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, here we go.
Speaker 1:Here we go. This week's episode is hot work. Hot work. Last week I had about 13 going on at the exact same time while I was there. Okay, so that's different than one. So hot work. Uh, last week I had about 13 going on the exact same time while I was there. Okay, so that's different than one. So hot work failures. So here we go. One of them is.
Speaker 2:I hope I don't have any this week fire watch.
Speaker 1:Where do you actually stand? Because the permit says clear the area 35 foot.
Speaker 2:Yeah what I do with the fire watch. Well, so that. So that's the deal. We don't generally, as an industry, we don't do a great job of covering as a fire watch anything beyond. Here's how you use a fire extinguisher.
Speaker 2:So fire watch, training Fire watch training would be the first thing, but the second thing is yeah, we want to cover where we're standing, because if I've got someone who's welding in a room multiple areas Do I have my fire watch stand where the person's welding and move with them, but how are they watching the first four welds?
Speaker 1:200 feet of pipe. On a Saturday, we're welding.
Speaker 2:We're elevated.
Speaker 1:We're elevated.
Speaker 2:I got sparks shooting everywhere. Are they standing where the welder is? Are they standing at the floor or the bin deck or wherever below?
Speaker 1:where all? The sparks are shooting Are they in the confined space 50 feet in there, or are they outside?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, yeah Because.
Speaker 1:I had a confined space this week. It was 80 feet inside and the fire watch is like I'm not sure where to go. I'm like, well, where's the fire? 80 feet in and you have to start deciding. What is that? Yeah, where are we going to have it? We are going to do some solutions, but it's still at the end solutions are going to be at the end.
Speaker 2:This is just to open your mind up also a thousand apologies for so many sips of coffee, because I'm really tired. I'm so sorry, all right, so here we go.
Speaker 1:So the fire watch where to stand and the training of it, because that's the problem they don't. They don't know where it's supposed to.
Speaker 2:We haven't covered that so.
Speaker 1:So this week, for example, we had a fire watch standing there and we decided we actually need three more.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the permit only has a place for one Most do, which depending on where you get your permit.
Speaker 2:So is it an internal permit, or did you get your hot work permit from an insurance company? Where'd this permit come from?
Speaker 1:And is it actually?
Speaker 2:custom for your business.
Speaker 1:Second one is permit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's the gap we see. It then has a lot of data for what you're going to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, it's not customized enough to really capture all of the information that is currently being litigated. When a place burns to the ground and we're trying to decide who pays the bill, cause that's really what we're talking about here.
Speaker 1:That's right. So so the permit, for example, the 35 foot we're going to clear out everything in 35 foot. Great, that's when you start. Yep. I had a 24 hour hot work project this week. Yeah, things are shuffling around All day long. Someone's going to move a trash can over there before they go to break. Someone's going to move a flannel order and put it down.
Speaker 2:Some weird combo gets brought in and you're like what? But it was clear at 35 foot when it started. We brought in the equipment and what we used to bring it in maybe was on a pallet. It's in a combo, wherever Maybe it.
Speaker 1:But all of that. So that permit is supposed to capture how you're going to do the job, the way your company does it.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:So people always send me. If I'm a contractor, why don't I use the plant one? Because they hired you to do your skill set. You may have three fire watches needed. You may do hot work a little different than they do. You take a food plant and you get a 10-minute break and you go out there and do hot work in 10 minutes. The 30 minute fire watch is interesting because there's meat there Six minutes later. Yeah, so is your 30 minute fire. It's not the same. Or a meal. It's going to be different in a meal, then it is going to be outside it can be 30 minutes in a meal.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know so, oh well, we'll just barricade an area out here, that's great, but how about you gotta watch it as you're clear the area?
Speaker 2:how about outside grassy areas? August it's hot, everything's dry.
Speaker 1:So the training? You gotta think about that, because how do we clear 35 feet in some of those areas? Maybe I need blankets, maybe I don't know. So the point is between the train and the permit, the people are confused and you just have a fire so I think the biggest thing that I would say next is that rolls right into training.
Speaker 2:We're using, in some cases, really generic training, that it doesn't cover those nuances, but those nuances are how?
Speaker 1:we burn stuff down and some people like the projects. I've done a bunch of projects last few weeks. That's all these people do for a living. So it's not a one-off, it's a one-off to the plant. I've done a bunch of projects the last few weeks. That's all these people do for a living. Yes, so it's not a one-off. It's a one-off to the plant, but that's the way they do the job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we brought you in because you're the expert at welding on this equipment or in this setting, so we're expecting you to come with the solutions, because that's kind of why we hired an expert.
Speaker 1:So you've got to train your people the way you're going to do it for the job you're doing, not for what the customer or the host does it? The customer? Yeah, is it customer? So here's another weird one. So I've got. Do we got to fill out this permit, do we not?
Speaker 2:And I said to someone why is that always the voice? It is?
Speaker 1:the voice. But I said to him here's the deal. Great, you don't fill out the permit. All I want to know is, if you burn down the building, is it your insurance or my insurance? And the guy's like what does that mean?
Speaker 2:I'm like well if you burn it down and you, yeah, yeah, I mean part of it is yes, we're supposed to be filling out the permit to avoid all of that. But the signatures on the permit are saying, as Manager Jen, I validated, this was good to go.
Speaker 1:That's right and it met all the intent and I'm keeping it good to go.
Speaker 2:Yep, I'm managing that hot work scenario as the supervisor, the manager, signing off on it for the duration of when it's going on. I'm validating the training meets what it needs to for my welder as well as my fire watch. I have validated all of those boxes. It's not check, check, check, check, check, check, check. And then we move on. They are supposed to mean something and we miss that until it's subpoenaed. And then we realize how important each one of those check boxes really is, that they serve a purpose.
Speaker 1:I've been at so many locations where they had to leave conveyors running in the area and they will say, yes, everything's managed in the area. I'm like, well, no, it's not, you still have conveyors running.
Speaker 2:That gets a spark on it and shoots it down the room.
Speaker 1:Just a few days ago, the fire watch was at the opening. I'm standing there's a big cement wall and I look over here and there's sparks coming out because they're doing welding inside this unit. They're sealing the hole. Well, guess what? It's still a hole.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, until we get it closed.
Speaker 1:And I'm like you need someone over there. So is it in the permit? Is it in the training? Is it what it doesn't matter? Is it in the program? No fire over here is the goal.
Speaker 2:So, as a manager, managing that, just think outside the box of what are they really doing, right? And that helps answer some of those questions of, realistically, what can we normally expect to happen during this and what's likely to happen, and let's start putting buffers.
Speaker 1:So that's part of our solutions. Evaluate what you're actually doing for your team, not the way you do the job.
Speaker 2:The generic online permit from wherever may not be adequate. You may need to add some more information. I can tell you right now most of the generic permits I see throw them right in the trash when it comes to the fire watch part because they're garbage. They don't tell me anything about when it starts, how long it should be who's doing it?
Speaker 1:how long so solution?
Speaker 2:Did we walk away and check in 30 minutes or did we stand there? I don't know. I can't tell from that document.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's in the shift. Do we really got to do 30 minutes? Because I don't do overtime.
Speaker 2:Or if it's a mill for 30 minutes and then I come back and check in 60, or am I standing there for 60? Did I use a temp gun? They don't tell me any of that information and in some industries that's vitally important because of the risk associated with hot work, given the flammability of the product. We're working around.
Speaker 1:So the the so solutions is evaluate where you're actually doing. Yep no fire risk no fire and then everything in between. You need to get a plan for, because I do. When I walk up I'm like where's the fire going to be? Is how I start. I don't start with a permit, I start where's the chance of having a fire and what's all the things we're doing to make sure that doesn't have it? Yes, permits part of it yeah but all this other stuff's gotta be part of.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think a caveat to that is designated welding areas.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:The intent of designating a certain spot, as a designated welding area means in my world.
Speaker 1:Not where you store the flammables.
Speaker 2:No, I'm going to say this is just our opinions. Take it how you want, do a risk assessment, interpret it how you want, whoever but this is what we've seen over 25 years. So just throwing that out there. So in my world, a designated welding area means I am keeping that area in compliance with the hot work permit all the time, 35 foot.
Speaker 2:I just brought in a box of flammables, like you said a cardboard box or I'm storing all my parts that I'm welding on in cardboard boxes on the shelf. It's not a welding shop or a maintenance shop just automatically complies. No, we've got to still meet the intent of the permit, because the intent of the permit is we don't burn the shop down, we don't burn everybody's eyes walking past on the way to break or whatever.
Speaker 1:So that's this. Your failures are your fire watch. You're not really sure where or what they need. So, get them some training. So if it's a 35 foot area on the original permit and you need a fire watch, you have to start selecting how many you're going to need, and it can't be just visual.
Speaker 1:So if I've got three conveyors, then it's going to take me a few minutes to get there. It's about timing more than anything else. You get supposed to put out the firewall. It's small, not by the time I get there. It's small, not by the time I get there.
Speaker 2:It's big well, I think it goes back to your fire training too. Are we a fire brigade or we're using two and we're out, right, you know I mean. So some of that has to do with your fire eap. Emergency plans too is like how many are we going to allow them to use before this? We're like, hey, this is more than we're really this is not incipient stage anymore. So the goal, like you said, is have a firewatch so you can get on that spark before it leaves incipient stage.
Speaker 1:Permit. Go back to your permit, think about the job you're going to do and figure out, between your training and your permit, how to modify and get what you need done.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whatever that task is Yep, filling it out, but not real. But one of our things we talk about is is that people, like you said, they check it and they don't even realize what it really means.
Speaker 2:I think that there's a disconnect in what that box really means so most of the time I see this is always one that's checked is like are the, are the floors clear below right? And we always say yeah, well, not if it's shooting over a guard rail. You know I mean so we've got to just where are they going? Where's the sparks?
Speaker 1:going. You can lay down blankets.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can wet the area, you can move everything out of there, you can do all kinds of stuff. Now this last few weeks. You can do screens and shields, all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:Last few weeks I did a lot of clear everything out and barrier tape it. Yeah, and say no one, come in right now. And if you bring something to it now, we got to stop and we got a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and some of that with the barrier tape is it's also a great visual for our fire watch. If we're managing this area, this is your area, this is your house, and especially if we're not, because of the design of where we're having to do this we can't bring in a screen or something.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. That's our, that, that's our top players, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you want to reach out, if you've got other questions or anything, allensafetycoachingcom is a great resource. We've got an entire hot work module on this. So we break down everything in really, really great detail in terms of the program, what should be in it, how to manage it, how to manage the training. We show you permits on there and kind of break those all down. So that's a great option for you. Otherwise, you can reach out to us at alan-safetycom for some in-person services. We've got audits, we do. We do all kinds of training, no secret, we do projects.
Speaker 1:We do a lot of projects.
Speaker 2:We do that quite a bit. Otherwise, you can reach out to us on social If you want to just kind of link up with us LinkedIn, joe Allen, jen Allen, you can reach out there. Facebook, tiktok, instagram all of the things Absolutely Reach out to us. Anyway, if you've got a request for an episode, send us a message and we'll try and get it worked in. Thank, you.
Speaker 2:Have a great week, everybody, take care. Thank you for listening to Safe, efficient, profitable a worker safety podcast. If you're looking for more in-depth discussions or step-by-step solutions on all of the different safety and regulatory topics, please visit us at wwwallensafetycoachingcom for web-based virtual coaching and training, or at wwwallensafetycom to book our team for onsite services, training sessions, to order merchandise, to learn more about our team and what services we provide in the field, or just simply to request a topic for us to cover on our next podcast. If you found today's podcast helpful and would like to support our podcast further, please help us by subscribing, liking and sharing this podcast with anyone that could benefit from the information we cover here, as that helps us to continue to put out this free content. Thank you.
